Here is the conversation that inspired this thread, from FC Open Coop Work in telegram. Sorry for length and difficulty to read.
Open Cooperative EcosystemA collection of different open-source apps that work together to provide an operational system for a communitykanban is one of the apps (actually the only one) part of the OCE yes
and it is linked to OCP data, through a Graphql layerthe wallet for coopshares will be another app, part of OCE
but, I don't understand one thing. About the process to start to develop a new kanban, instead of using one of the opensource kanban supperted by global community, like for example Wekanhttps://wekan.github.io/I mean, for example Wekan is already developed, and have a community behind supporting and updating it
since its almost the same question that berzas made in pm a few minutes ago i'll paste the same response
hey :)the kanban that I am developing is thought to allow an economic network in project management:
Basically the main features of an economic network kanban are:
- Allow Resource flow tracking- Manage Supply chain
- Allow Dependecies between processesall stuff that in modern kanban are not implemented because modern kanban (like trello, gitlab / github kanban / wekan) are focused only on sofftware developmentinstead we are building a real economic network, think at Circular Economy, we need to manage and create real economy project management
where a process can depend from resources generated from another separate processreal kanban was developed by toyota in the 1960, to improve the toyota car supply chainthat is the power that I want to delivercombined with trello usability
basically if you think about it, its the same reason why we are building faircoin instead that using bitcoin
we already had a cryptocurrency independent from the state
why build your own?
my answer: because we want to create an economic system focused on cooperativism and mutualism, bitcoin is a good inspiration but lets reinvent the wheel improving it with faircoin
About the Open Cooperative Ecosystem, the new UIs that Bernin1 is developing are one early component, the OCP API that fosterlynn is developing is another early component, and the Kispagi app that ivanEsperanto is developing is another early component.
true, and its the same reply of berzas, and I agree with it, but actually all the open source kanban does not really fit in a resource flow process management
Kispagi connects Gitlab and OCP via the ValueFlows vocabulary that the OCP API uses.
the only app that we could fork imho would be "kanbanize" but its not open source
I'm agree that we need different tools, cooperating, in a modular ecosystem.
Bernini's new UIs use the same API and vocabulary.
Gitlab offers a Wekan-like kanban board, which can be connected to the ecosystem via kispagi.
Wekan could also be connected if anybody wanted to do it.
well, this is the same that is going to be Kamasi Kanban?
No, Bernini's new UIs are a lot more capable from the perspective of an overall cooperative economic system.They use the same card and panel UI metaphor.
But connect up to everything else better.
Just to be clear (and ivanEsperanto can correct if I'm wrong) - Kispagi currently reads work data from both OCP (using the new valuflows ocp api) and from gitlab (using gitlab's api).
Bernin1 's resource flow kanban also uses the OCP api.....and currently uses OCP as a backend
I really like the idea of open apps which can be all integrated in one Integral Dashboard, as this is actually what we need, to interconnect all the tools we have already in one place. From the discussion with bernini we figured out that this dashboard can have different categories, refering to the things we want to change with the integral revolution. Thus, the main categories could be Finance, Work, Trade, Communication, Education, Health, Transport, Energy, Housing etc...something like this maybe:
Finances: FairCoin Wallet | BotC/OCP Wallet | FairSavingAccount | CoopShares | ChipChap | GetFaircoin
Work: - work organisation: OCP - Kanban | GitLab | board.net|- work payment: OCP-Kispagi | FreedomCoop Invoice App|
Trade: FairMarket | UseFairCoin |
Communication: Telegram | FairChat | Zoom (embedded) |
Education: FairAcademy | OpenKi | Zoom | Video repository? |
Health: Health insurance (OCP/FreedomCoop)| Doctors accepting FAIR (useFair)Transport: Common Routs|
Energy : (Pylon project) | Energy supplier
Housing: FairBnB | Plattform for Housing/land trust
Local Node: local nodes website? | add pads or whatever?
Thats more or less the boader picture Bernin1 , right?
but most categories still has to be worked out as finance and work is probably the most advanced part until now
also forum + cloud + wiki
yep, its not a complete list, just to get an idea...but for sure those could have their space as well somewhere
the Open Cooperative Ecosystem concept looks good, but I don't understand the idea in the background.
I mean, it feels like the plan is to write lots of apps, that already exist in the opensource community.
For example:- kanban Kamasi —> already exist: https://wekan.github.io/- OCP project/tasks managemt —> already exists in some of the software listed in this analysis: https://git.fairkom.net/faircoop/Tech/General/wikis/project-manager-analysis
it feels like we are trying to rewrite the tools that already exist in the opensource community. And also, is not only re-write the tools, is also once they are developed, give updates and constantly fixing bugs.
Using opensource already developed tools, we save work time and energy, and also, we feed reciprocally the opensource community of the tools.
GitLabProject manager analysis · Wiki · faircoop / FairCoopTech / GeneralGeneral project for tasks related to the Tech Area (communication , internal management, etc)
For example, can you imagine that we decide to write a Forum app, instead of using Discourse or other forum open software? In less than a week, we had the Discourse installed and now we are already using it in production
Or writting a new cryptocurrency, instead of forking bitcoin and getting better for Faircoin.Or writting a collaborative pad, instead of using the etherpad for board.net. (and lots of other examples)I have similar feelings for the OCP project/tasks manager tool and for Kamasi kanban. There are already opensource tools that fits our needs, with lots of features, and a development community behind each tool.
I'll try to explain this again, because I don't think people get it.
OCP was an experiment, started in Sensorica, to develop all the logic and concept relationships required for a whole cooperative economic system.
Now we want to take that apart into components, and also be able to connect to other software and components, using the vocabulary of a new economic system.So a lot of the software that people are mentioning, can be used, if it can be connected to the new economic system.Gitlab has been at least partly connected.
But then it depends on what do you want to do? Develop a cooperative economic system?Or something else?
I am not trying to persuade anybody to do this. It will be a lot of work. But I do want people to understand that overall goal.
I know that the topic about software tools, has already been discussed some times, but maybe it has not been resolved.
But I feel that this needs to be resolved, before continue developing tools that already exist in the opensource community.
Maybe good point can be having a meeting only to discuss about the tools, and decide a roadmap.—> But having everybody with knowledge about the current tools and the opensource tools that already exist. Because, maybe there is lots of people that doesn't have an opinion about the tools topic, because they haven't seen the tools that already exist
For example, if we can use an already existing opensource tool supported by the opensource community, we can focus the devs to develop new features or new projects. For example, maybe Tuleap fits very good with our project management & kanban needs:https://www.tuleap.org/what-is-tuleap(it's just an example)www.tuleap.orgTuleap • Open Source Agile Development tools, designed to adapt by teamsTuleap, the first 100% Libre & Open Source Development, Collaboration and Workflow Platform. Build faster quality software!
I'm agree with the Open Cooperative Ecosystem concept, for sure. But I think that we can use inside the OCE the tools that already exist in the opensource community, just to avoid writting tools that already exist
arros I really like your idea of having a meeting to discuss tools and roadmap, and would also really like to have some of these discussions resolved for FairCoop.
A few notes:
Yes, of course it doesn't make sense to write apps where a good open source alternative exists. It can be better to just add the hooks to those apps so they can participate in a cooperative economic system.
For example, it would be great to hook issue/discussion/forum/etc. apps (like issue management in github or loomio or discourse or whatever) into a developing ecosystem. For those, it would be great to be able to discuss or chat about a specific topic, say a work effort or a project or whatever - right where you are say recording your work hours. So it can be much more than a menu of all open apps, they can be connected where you want them, through bots or other techniques.
Re. OCP, Bob mentioned the Sensorica experiment. In fact work on creating something that will work for a whole economic system as well as networked ecosystems goes farther back than that too with other research and experiments with active groups. If there had been other open source ERPs that worked well for networks instead of having grown up to serve enterprises, OCP would not have been necessary. The simple model underlying OCP can work for whole economic ecosystems without bandaiding an enterprise model to do so, making it very complex and hard to work with. ValueFlows has taken that model further and is trying to standardize it with other people's inputs and experience also.
arros is the project to tie software together into a whole economic system, instead of a bunch of separate and isolated tools, clear to you?
yes, I'm agree
And for that purpose, some tools, like those that Bernin1 is creating, do not exist anywhere.
They are the components that let you as an individual interact with all kinds of other components. See all of your accounts, interact with all of your projects, etc.
well, offcourse a tool that connects with OCP does not exist.. it's obvious, becouse OCP already is not finishet, so there was no option to exist a tool that does a Kanban connected to OCP
It's more than OCP.
For example, many people will have accounts in FairChain, Bank of the Commons, ChipChap, Coop Shares, etc etc.
As of now, you can't see all of those in the same place, at the same time.
I don't know if I'm understanding correctly, but, if the problem is the multiple login, it is solved with FairLogin that @rasobar has implemented, true?
Please. It is not just multiple login
It is not not needing to log into separate apps at all.arrosI thought that was about login with one unique account to all the sub-tools of the ecosystem
This is just one simple example: being able to see and interact with all of those accounts at the same place, at the same time.
That's just login.
I'm agree, thats the point of having a modular ecosystem, instead of one monolithic unique software app
This is way beyond login.
Modular ecosystem implies that the modules actually work together.
arros+1, I'm agree
Bernin1 is developing some modules that don't exist yet.
You might think that his kanban is a duplication of wekan etc but that is only the superficial appearance.
also, inside OCP there is another Kanban board
That was my fake kanban experiment
That one is actually like Bernini's, in that every card has a whole network behind it
but it doesn't provide much interaction, and we want to break OCP into modules, too
I'm happy if we can re-use lots of existing components and tie them all together.
Would be even better if the people who worked on those components wanted to participate in a larger ecosystem.
Lots of people are talking about this, and a few other projects are working on the same set of ideas.
We all pretty much know and talk to each other.
Always good to have somebody new join the train.
Great! When this is happening we might not talk about OCP in general anymore as its just a basic backend of many different apps. Is that correct?
maybe, OCP can be a directory to all the apps/tools, where the users login, and inside OCP can go to the different apps of the Open Cooperative Ecosystem
Yes, if I understand Bernin1 proposal well, the first phase could be to use OCP as a backend for any new apps that use that data (easiest first step), and a later phase could be to break out the backend into pieces also. (Future architecture to be defined.)
Of course there are other economic based apps (like FairMarket) that are not OCP backend based, that might want to be integrated into an Open Collaborative Ecosystem too.
Maybe a shop owner could want to see his/her shop activity as part of the mockup above?
And the possibilities can go even farther with some of the things the Circular Economy group is working on. Could be all pieces of of a growing economic ecosystem that could be represented in software in an Open Collaborative Ecosystem, as networked data.....
There are already a lot of projects that collect sets of curated open source apps. For example: